ONTD Political

Israeli airstrikes on Gaza, as it happened 15th Nov

3:47 pm - 11/17/2012
A rocket launched by Palestinian militants towards Israel makes its way from a densely populated civilian area in the northern Gaza Strip, seen from the Israel Gaza Border, southern Israel. This may explain to anyone interested why there are and always will be palestinian casualties.



Source - The Hindu

The article is the usual summary of hostilities between the two parties, but in this case the picture is definitely worth a thousand words.

Israel has attacked more than 200 targets in the Gaza Strip since the killing of Hamas military commander-in-chief Ahmed Ja’abari, an army spokesman in Tel Aviv said on Thursday.

The Safa news agency of the Islamist movement that rules Gaza said the death toll in the attacks had risen to 11 Palestinians after three members of the Qassam Brigades died in a pre-dawn raid in the southern Gaza Strip.

Two children and a pregnant woman were among the dead, it said, adding that more than 100 people were injured since the attacks began on Wednesday afternoon. Israel used F-16 war planes, Apache helicopter gunships and naval vessels to shell targets.



About 105 targets were hit before midnight, and more than another 100 were hit overnight, the Israeli army said. Many of them were rocket-launching sites and pits, the army spokesman said.

Rocket fire against Israel continued with scores landing since Wednesday and sirens wailing repeatedly in towns and cities within a range of 40 kilometres from the Gaza Strip.

Batteries of Israel’s Iron Dome short-range missile defence system downed 31 missiles over southern Israel fired by Palestinian armed groups, the army said.

Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets over the coastal enclave, warning civilians to stay away from facilities of Palestinian militant groups.

“Important announcement for the residents of the Gaza Strip,” said the leaflets. “For your own safety, take responsibility for yourselves and avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives and facilities and those of other terror organizations that pose a risk to your safety.”
poetic_pixie_13 18th-Nov-2012 01:48 am (UTC)
A rocket launched by Palestinian militants towards Israel makes its way from a densely populated civilian area in the northern Gaza Strip, seen from the Israel Gaza Border, southern Israel. This may explain to anyone interested why there are and always will be Palestinian casualties.

Considering that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places, if not the most densely populated place, on earth, that's not surprising. Personally I think there'll always be Palestinian casualties because you have one of the strongest militaries in the world going against folks under occupation who have rockets and rocks. Just a shade of imbalance in power, I think.

Death is tragic no matter who it is that dies. None of the lives lost are weighed differently because of the land that was under their feet when they fell. But please don't pretend like this is some kind of proportional response to anything.
redstar826 18th-Nov-2012 01:59 am (UTC)
what would be considered a proportional response? I'm trying to learn more about this conflict and I see lots of references to proportionate and disproportionate responses without either of those terms being clearly defined.
poetic_pixie_13 18th-Nov-2012 02:21 am (UTC)
I mentioned about proportionate responses because that's what's invoked every time anyone says they're defending themselves. We're just responding what was done with us but we're not overdoing it. What proportionate response actually is varies widely. For some it's attacking military targets, or civilians, or places of symbolic importance that are very unlikely to have any casualties or or or.

Personally, I think the idea of proportionate and disproportionate responses is bullshit. Three lives, ten lives, fifty lives lost in Gaza won't make up for the three lost in Israel. These rockets are the weapons of the dispossessed. Terrorism is the last tool of a desperate peoples. If Israel wants actual peace to happen it needs to stop acting the part of jailer to the Palestinian peoples. Just because what Hamas does is horrific doesn't mean Israel's response isn't.

However 'proportionate' a response is it leads to the same things, in the end.
gruimed 18th-Nov-2012 07:26 pm (UTC)
Anything Israel does is considered disproportional. Anything except for silently living under constant fear of rocket fire.

As some other person mentioned, the reaction is disproportional indeed - we target rocket stockpiles and launch sites. Proportional reaction would be just to kill everybody, like they do.
wolffsekunde What ^ he said, also:18th-Nov-2012 02:25 am (UTC)
I want to make sure it's understood I'm pro-human first, pro-Israel second. I hate this conflict and both sides that are keeping it alive. That said, I'm also unclear what a proportionate response to rocket attacks would be. And if you want to go back further, whether rocket attacks are a proportionate response to what pro-Palestinians folks call Israel's occupation. Which side determines what's proportionate? Does Israel just let Gaza rule itself without any assistance? Do they just stop Palestinians from being able to enter its borders like any nation is allowed to do? I'm finding it difficult to fathom what possible outcome could be seen as beneficial to the Palestinian people aside from kicking Hamas the eff out of Gaza and trying to figure out a better way to rule themselves.

Like I said, I'm pro-human first. It breaks my heart to know that Hamas has such a direct impact on making its own subjects' lives miserable by hiding behind them to launch rockets. And then to watch Israel try to attack back and kill civilians along with militants is just as heartbreaking. There's no good solution here, I'm afraid, and certainly not a proportionate one on either side.
poetic_pixie_13 Re: What ^ he said, also:18th-Nov-2012 03:20 am (UTC)
Like I said in my above comment, I don't think there is such a thing as a proportionate response. Violence begets violence, death begets death. This will happen forever if people focus on how many people must be killed in retaliation instead of what can create peace.

Not that there's any incentive for either the Israeli government or Hamas to stop the attacks. These attacks help to legitimize and continue their personal propaganda and narratives.

I completely agree with your second paragraph. There's no good solution but if one is to be found Israel needs to make the first attempts, needs to genuinely show that it wants peace. Hamas has so much power because it uses approximately 90% of its $70 million budget on social services. It provides all this without the reputation of corruption that Fatah has. When you combine that with the fact that for many Palestinians death rains from above almost everyday... it's understandable why Hamas has such widespread support.

I don't have the answers to any of your questions. But there are so many in Palestine who do. Whatever bitterness and hate that's been cultivated through violence and war and death, most folks at the end of the day want to have fulfilling live, safe and free for them and their loved ones. Change can happen, achingly slowly yes, but it can happen. But it can't when the Palestinian people are made so desperate by the Israeli government.
gruimed 18th-Nov-2012 07:38 am (UTC)
I can't believe it... you somehow find a way to justify Hamas firing rockets from populated areas!?!? Wow...amazing. Not much to say here.

P.S. Check Google maps, there ARE open areas in the Gaza strip, its not like it is one huge megapolis.
bowtomecha 18th-Nov-2012 11:15 am (UTC)
Yes. No matter how justified Hamas may feel, they are cowards using their own people as shields and sheep. Only idiots would think that Israel would not retaliate directly. Almost as a rule, its going to happen. But sure, keep launching your rockets from neighborhoods of your own people just to get them killed so you can further your goals.
clarrisani 18th-Nov-2012 04:45 am (UTC)
Have to love the Israeli targets - mosques, schools, football stadiums, innocent people on motorbikes...
wolffsekunde Not sure if serious.18th-Nov-2012 02:06 pm (UTC)
Assuming you're not being sarcastic here. But I really do hope at least part of this is sarcastic. If you honestly think Israel is just indiscriminately targeting civilian targets then your level of disconnect from reality to far too large to make Internet commenting safe for you. Put down the laptop, turn off your router and please go sit on your couch until batshit theories like that stop occurring to you.

Plus, and this is more sarcasm than not, but even if Israel were indiscriminately targeting civilians wouldn't that make this whole thing far more proportionate? Militants launch hundreds of rockets at civilians, Israel returns in kind. Or is that not the right kind of proportion that people keep looking for.
ladypolitik Re: Not sure if serious.18th-Nov-2012 03:37 pm (UTC)
Plus, and this is more sarcasm than not, but even if Israel were indiscriminately targeting civilians wouldn't that make this whole thing far more proportionate? Militants launch hundreds of rockets at civilians, Israel returns in kind. Or is that not the right kind of proportion that people keep looking for.

It's inherently outrageous that the Israeli government and its proponents will claim that it's the lone democratic nation in the region, yet wastes no time stooping to the level of a contingent that they insists resort to (1) terrorism and (2) breaking international/human rights law. "We return in kind/we AIM to kill, tho!" is NOT a valid excuse, period.

Never mind the way this "proportionality" debate remains a smoke screen for the the decades occupation of Palestinian territories well beyond Israel's autonomous borders itself, which IS a good chunk of the source of this conflict to begin with. Band-aids dont cure cancer, for the record.

Blind proponents of the Israeli government at some point have to learn to hold the Israeli government to a standard that aims somewhere higher than people they themselves portray as crazy wild-eyed militants; it cant have it both ways.

Edited at 2012-11-18 04:32 pm (UTC)
clarrisani Re: Not sure if serious.19th-Nov-2012 06:57 am (UTC)
Not being sarcastic - stating their actual confirmed targets. They just wiped out an entire family, including four children. The terrorist group Likud has said their aim is to "send Gaza back to the Middle Ages" and to wipe out entire neighbourhoods. This is doubly so should Palestine put in for statehood aka attempt a diplomatic resolution.
jwaneeta 18th-Nov-2012 06:38 am (UTC)
I hate Israel. These decades of atrocities have made me hate Israel. I wish the US would cut diplomatic ties.
gruimed 18th-Nov-2012 07:17 pm (UTC)
That was my point exactly - people that hate Israel side with people that fire rockets from schools and hospitals.
slurp 18th-Nov-2012 12:49 pm (UTC)
“Important announcement for the residents of the Gaza Strip,” said the leaflets. “For your own safety, take responsibility for yourselves and avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives and facilities and those of other terror organizations that pose a risk to your safety.


Easier said than done tbh.
gruimed 18th-Nov-2012 07:17 pm (UTC)
So justify them? Nice.
ellenel13 18th-Nov-2012 02:16 pm (UTC)
fucking hell, everytime something goes on in the israeli-palestine conflict, you show up to tell everyone that israel is benevolent and hepless when it comes to retaliating to hamas attacks by murdering palestinian civilians

just fuck off and be sure that as long as the christian right has such power in american politics, israel will continue to get undisputed aid from the USA even if they were to directly shit on palestinian children's mouths
hinoema 18th-Nov-2012 03:05 pm (UTC)
fucking hell, everytime something goes on in the israeli-palestine conflict, you show up to tell everyone that israel is benevolent and hepless when it comes to retaliating to hamas attacks by murdering palestinian civilians

He's their PR guy.
gruimed 18th-Nov-2012 07:16 pm (UTC)
So you side with people that build rocket launch sites in schools and hospitals. Bravo!
violetrose 18th-Nov-2012 09:44 pm (UTC)
I wonder if they're paid to post/comment here.

They only respond to posts about Israel/Palestine, very obviously denying the Israeli occupation of Gaza and acting as if anyone that disagrees with Israel's current policies wants all Israelis to be killed or whatever else. They even say this to other Israelis or Jews that disagree with Israel's foreign policy.

They're ridiculous.
homasse 19th-Nov-2012 02:00 am (UTC)
'Sup, Gruimed. I was wondering how long before you showed up. I'm honestly surprised it took this long. You're slacking.

Edited at 2012-11-19 02:01 am (UTC)
hinoema 19th-Nov-2012 06:35 am (UTC)
Yup. No holiday bonus for that one. *tsk*
gruimed 19th-Nov-2012 09:55 am (UTC)
Guys, you are amazing! Even in this post which is about Hamas firing rockets from homes and schools you find a way to demonize Israel and sympathise with terrorists.

Bravo!

I kinda like it that shitheads like you hate Israel, it just proves one more time that we are the good ones.

Ciao.
the_gabih 19th-Nov-2012 11:08 am (UTC)
that we are the good ones.

When you stop murdering children and pregnant women, we'll believe that.
hinoema 19th-Nov-2012 03:04 pm (UTC)
Insults, eh? Can we ban his ass now?
This page was loaded May 24th 2016, 9:58 am GMT.