ONTD Political

A decisive conclusion is necessary

11:33 am - 11/19/2012
A decisive conclusion is necessary
There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip.

Anyone who thinks Hamas is going to beg for a cease-fire, that Operation Pillar of Defense will draw to a close and quiet will reign in the South because we hit targets in the Gaza Strip, needs to think again.

With the elimination of a murderous terrorist and the destruction of Hamas’s long-range missile stockpile, the operation was off to an auspicious start, but what now? This must not be allowed to end as did Operation Cast Lead: We bomb them, they fire missiles at us, and then a cease-fire, followed by “showers” – namely sporadic missile fire and isolated incidents along the fence. Life under such a rain of death is no life at all, and we cannot allow ourselves to become resigned to it.

A strong opening isn’t enough, you also have to know how to finish – and finish decisively. If it isn’t clear whether the ball crossed the goal-line or not, the goal isn’t decisive. The ball needs to hit the net, visible to all. What does a decisive victory sound like? A Tarzan-like cry that lets the entire jungle know in no uncertain terms just who won, and just who was defeated.

To accomplish this, you need to achieve what the other side can’t bear, can’t live with, and our initial bombing campaign isn’t it.

THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.

The Gaza Strip functions as a state – it has a government and conducts foreign relations, there are schools, medical facilities, there are armed forces and all the other trappings of statehood. We have no territorial conflict with “Gaza State,” and it is not under Israeli siege – it shares a border with Egypt. Despite this, it fires on our citizens without restraint.

Why do our citizens have to live with rocket fire from Gaza while we fight with our hands tied? Why are the citizens of Gaza immune? If the Syrians were to open fire on our towns, would we not attack Damascus? If the Cubans were to fire at Miami, wouldn’t Havana suffer the consequences? That’s what’s called “deterrence” – if you shoot at me, I’ll shoot at you. There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

Were this to happen, the images from Gaza might be unpleasant – but victory would be swift, and the lives of our soldiers and civilians spared.

IF THE government isn’t prepared to go all the way on this, it will mean reoccupying the entire Gaza Strip. Not a few neighborhoods in the suburbs, as with Cast Lead, but the entire Strip, like in Defensive Shield, so that rockets can no longer be fired.

There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip. Otherwise there will be no decisive victory. And we’re running out of time – we must achieve victory quickly. The Netanyahu government is on a short international leash. Soon the pressure will start – and a million civilians can’t live under fire for long. This needs to end quickly – with a bang, not a whimper.

--

The writer, whom I currently think is evil, is the son of former PM of Israel Ariel Sharon.

He certainly isn't alone in his thinking; according to a HuffPo article: Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai is reported by The Yeshiva World News to have said, "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water." Haaretz also reports that Yishai stated, "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

So far, 73 Palestinians and 3 Israelis have died.
wingstar102 19th-Nov-2012 03:06 am (UTC)
Fuck this guy. Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza, but nobody will deal with them because the Israeli government says they're terrorists because Hamas has the audacity to protest Israel breaking the treaty established boundaries. Palestinians have no voice to the international communities and this is the only way they have to call attention to the illegal blockades and encroachment and deaths they are enduring. Hate this shit and every government who backs any option except diplomacy is tacitly agreeing with the disproportionate response that Israel is making.

Edited at 2012-11-19 03:06 am (UTC)
metanoiame 19th-Nov-2012 03:39 am (UTC)
Well, the Israeli government calls Hamas terrorists because they kill Israeli civilians - much like the Israelis kill Palestinian civilians - not just because Hamas "has the audacity to protest." Obviously, Israel has a much wider international backing and uses much more disproportionate force in the war, but it doesn't do any good to whitewash the situation.
wingstar102 19th-Nov-2012 03:58 am (UTC)
True. But Hamas didn't just start killing Israelis for no reason.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 02:09 am (UTC)
No, they started killing them because they hate Jews. That's pretty much their reason.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 02:57 am (UTC)
Here's what the people who have way more knowledge than us have to say about the subject:

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?

“The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

Here's the full article, in case you're curious: The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

So... no it's not just because they hate Jews.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 03:13 am (UTC)
Go watch some Middle Eastern TV, some time. Look at the psychological diet the common people are fed, day in, day out. It's pretty much all kill-the-evil-Jews rhetoric.

Here are some examples, just given to children. As you can imagine, the stuff the adults get is far more hateful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNE__TiMZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wiBwQ9fiho

Hardly anyone, aside from the likes of MEMRI, bother to translate this stuff into English, which is why it doesn't make headlines in the Western world.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 03:22 am (UTC)
I've seen it. But you're surprised when this is what has happened to their people?

“The record of Israeli terrorism goes back to the origins of the state — indeed, long before — including the massacre of 250 civilians and brutal expulsion of seventy thousand others from Lydda and Ramle in July 1948; the massacre of hundreds of others at the undefended village of Doueimah near Hebron in October 1948;...the slaughters in Quibya, Kafr Kassem, and a string of other assassinated villages; the expulsion of thousands of Bedouins from the demilitarized zones shortly after the 1948 war and thousands more from northeastern Sinai in the early 1970’s, their villages destroyed, to open the region for Jewish settlement; and on, and on.” Noam Chomsky, “Blaming The Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens.

“However much one laments and even wishes somehow to atone for the loss of life and suffering visited upon innocents because of Palestinian violence, there is still the need, I think, also to say that no national movement has been so unfairly penalized, defamed, and subjected to disproportionate retaliation for its sins as has the Palestinian.

The Israeli policy of punitive counterattacks (or state terrorism) seems to be to try to kill anywhere from 50 to 100 Arabs for every Jewish fatality. The devastation of Lebanese refugee camps, hospitals, schools, mosques, churches, and orphanages; the summary arrests, deportations, house destructions, maimings, and torture of Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza..these, and the number of Palestinian fatalities, the scale of material loss, the physical, political and psychological deprivations, have tremendously exceeded the damage done by Palestinians to Israelis.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”


But you don't see this stuff in the news, because the Goddess forbid anyone say anything bad about the Israeli government.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 03:45 am (UTC)
Yes, I'm surprised they broadcast a diet of nothing but that to their people, when they claim they're supposedly peaceful. Then again, even Abbas said, last year, I think, that his aims have not changed one iota from those which Arafat espoused. If people saw a fraction of what gets written in Arabic and how clearly it contradicts certain statements in English, then the likes of Fatah and HAMAS would get zero support.

Reminds me of the recent demonstrations, where the Muslim Brotherhood were putting out one message of asking for calm and refuting the riots, in their English language Twitter feed, only to be saying exactly the opposite on their other. When the US signalled they were aware of this, it shamed them into stopping.

Chomsky is hardly an unbiased source for this kind of thing and Hitchens, thankfully, took a much more realistic position on things, later in his life. Anyone who honestly believes it's "Israeli policy" to adopt a specific kill ratio purely for motives of revenge, however, is operating in fantasy land...

As I say, go and look at actual video footage of what goes on, rather than copy/pasting from intellectuals. Look at the charter of HAMAS and what it says about existing to destroy Israel.

And if you believe the media is in Israel's bunker, forget it. It's often the other way around. Either unintentionally (like CNN's recent claim of a dead child being a victim of the Israeli strikes, when they had actually been killed by a HAMAS rocket) or very much intentionally.
natgel 19th-Nov-2012 09:11 pm (UTC)
"Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza, but nobody will deal with them because the Israeli government says they're terrorists because Hamas has the audacity to protest Israel breaking the treaty established boundaries"

Please tell me you're joking. Hamas is recognised as a terrorist orginisation not just by Israel, but by the US and the European Union, among other nations. And why? Because Hamas, while they are indeed the duly elected government of Gaza, (1) repeatedly targets civillians in their attacks (2) drew out their opposite party through bloody conflict entirely out of Gaza (3) abuse their own people. Don't trust my word for it, just google the independent commission for human rights based in Ramallah.

wingstar102 19th-Nov-2012 09:23 pm (UTC)
Went to Wikipedia and looked it up. The former government, the Palestinian National Authority, led by Arafat, caused most of the problems. Hamas, as bad as the shit they do is, hasn't done a fraction of the damage as Arafat. Two completely different political groups.
wingstar102 19th-Nov-2012 11:26 pm (UTC)
No system or political government is perfect, not even America, I know this. Bad shit happens. But all except one of these articles are from when the Palestinian National Party ruled, or right after. Since we don't have accurate information of what happened during 2009, I can't judge that. Don't forget, every country has civil rights abuses, even the "First World Nations".
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 02:11 am (UTC)
Israel calls them terrorists because they are terrorists. When your 'protests' consist of repeated attempted genocide (or at least, trying to kill just about anyone you can, regardless of age or status), calling it 'resistance' is laughable.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 03:01 am (UTC)
Well, of course they are going to resort to blowing shit up, not that I condone it. They have been illegally blockaded and suppressed!
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 03:16 am (UTC)
And when they can prove they can act like civilised, responsible human beings, they can have the kind of freedoms which would otherwise allow them to commit a great deal more in the way of atrocities.

Maybe if they spent all those millions the UN hands over (without stipulations of how it should be used), on things like food, clean water, medicine and education, instead of a shitload of weapons to lash out at Israeli civilians with, they might be trusted more.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 03:24 am (UTC)
Well, considering that the Israeli government is blockading them, I don't see how they can get any aid. But you're just trolling.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 03:38 am (UTC)
No, I'm trying to hold a civil conversation, but if you resort to saying someone's "trolling" just for doing that, you're not going to get very far in life.

You should check your facts, however. the Israeli government does help to send aid to the Palestineans. They just want to be sure of where it goes. To the people in need, rather than terrorists.

Otherwise, you just end up with a situation like North Korea, where the ordinary people starve for decades and the military are the only ones who receive the aid.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 03:49 am (UTC)
They are starving to death. Here's the link for just the land blockade: Blockade of Gaza Strip. The items of what's allowed are changed all the time.

Do your own damn research from now on. I didn't get as far in my life as I have by doing people's work for them.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 04:27 am (UTC)
I do plenty of my own research. It seems that it angers you that much of my own simply happens to disagree with yours, however, which is never a healthy thing in a debate.

I never said there wasn't a blockade. Read my message again. I said that they send things through, but that it's in place to make sure it doesn't go to the wrong people or that the wrong things aren't allowed.

If you looked at the very link you passed on, it verifies precisely that - and would have told you that items which are duel-use are banned for that reason.

For the record:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189781_489242697765272_404015213_n.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVbXmQQAcKY
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 04:37 am (UTC)
Dual-use is asinine. Flour can be as explosive as dynamite under pressure.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 04:59 am (UTC)
And if there weren't so many examples of them using these things for destructive purposes, they wouldn't have to be banned. You're acting like they've got nothing better to do than make life difficult for the hell of it - which is contradicted by their participation in the aid effort.

Seriously, ask yourself how your country would act if a place like Gaza was acting the way it is to them. Security precautions like these would inevitably be put in place.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 05:02 am (UTC)
Well, I imagine Palestinians wouldn't be acting like this if Israel wasn't trying to steal their lands and destroy lives and homes.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 05:19 am (UTC)
My friend, HAMAS fired NINETY-FIVE ROCKETS at Israel, today. They refused a ceasefire, declaring that Israel must surrender on their terms, instead.

Those are not the actions of an organisation who wants to peacefully negotiate things, like civilised people. Nor are they the actions of a group who see their own population, not as human beings, but as 'martyrs' (whether consenting or not). Just as their habitual use of housing, mosques and hospital, to store ammunition and fire missiles from, is anything other than a desire to use the innocent as human shields.

They've been launching attacks on an almost daily basis, since at least 2009 and know damned well that doing so isn't going to soften the resolve of Israel. That all it will result in are potential dead Jews (or Western holiday-makers; who they're just as happy to see die).

You can't play this game of moral equivalence when that's the kind of insane, death cult-like behaviour which is in play. Their actions simply aren't excusable.

It's within their power to stop this. To expect Israel to simply go back and tolerate the same level of rocket barrages is not realistic. No nation on Earth would do that. Why you apparently expect Israel to be the exception and do so... I'm sorry, but it completely mystifies me.

All HAMAS has to do is stop firing rockets at civilians. That's all. Israel doesn't want to spend all this money on multi-million dollar precision weapons they'll need to use. They would much rather have a peace-time economy and increase tourism.

If you've got a realistic alternative solution? Let's hear it. Telling Israel to "stop it" isn't an option. That's what they've been doing all this time.
wingstar102 20th-Nov-2012 05:30 am (UTC)
I am not your friend, do not call me so.

My solution is almost a century too late, but here it is: The Israelis should have never stolen Palestine.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 05:34 am (UTC)
You realise that 'Palestineans' pretty much meant the same as 'Jews', back in ye olde days, right?

Nevertheless, rehashing old history does nothing to prevent HAMAS, Hezbullah or any of the rest in carrying out these actions now.
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