ONTD Political

In the wake of National Review’s decision to part ways with its longtime contributor John Derbyshire over a frankly racist provocation published in the far-right website TakiMag, the Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf exhumes a long-ago Derbyshire interview in which he discussed the generational divide in conservative attitudes on race:

… I frequently meet college students who tell me they are conservative, who have all the attributes of what seems to me a broadly conservative outlook on life and society, who want to read conservative publications… yet who have a deep dislike of many of the topics — not just the point of view, the actual topics — that interest older readers.

This shows up most especially in the area of race, and the penumbra of issues – immigration, for instance, or crime-fighting – that are associated with it. The kind of thoughtful and intelligent young people that NR would like to have as readers understand that there are problems and absurdities connected with race in our public life, and are happy to hear arguments pro and con about racial profiling, affirmative action, and so on. They laugh with us when we lampoon the more outrageous kind of black race hustler — a Sharpton, a Farrakhan, a Johnny Cochran. They are, however, determined to make the multiracial society work, they believe it can be made to work in spite of the hustlers and liberal guilt-mongers, and they are unwilling to read, say, or think anything that could be construed as unkind towards people of other races. The pessimism and cynicism on this topic that you rather commonly find among conservatives — including NR readers — born in 1930, or even 1950, are profoundly unappetizing to these younger conservatives.


Which prompts Friedersdorf to write: “Parting ways with Derbyshire isn’t going to do anything to improve race relations in America. But it has brought National Review a step closer to relying on the younger rather than the older generation of conservatives. On subjects related to race that’s a very good thing.”

I agree that the parting-of-the-ways was a good thing. But I also wonder if using Derbyshire as a type in an older/younger, benighted past/enlightened future dichotomy doesn’t reflect a touch of over-optimism about what that future is actually likely to bring.

If we think of racism primarily as an ideological and political problem that’s specific to a particular time and place — an artefact of chattel slavery and segregationist culture, nurtured by racist institutions and propped up by comprehensive theories of racial inferiority, and sustained into the present by the enduring influence of Jim Crow — then it’s relatively easy to spin a narrative in which Derbyshire’s racial attitudes, and those of many older whites, are just the byproduct of the thought structures that they grew up with and haven’t been able to escape, but that their heirs are well on their way to overcoming. But if we think of racial prejudice as a more diffuse cultural phenomenon, common to almost every society and region where different ethnic groups coexist, then perhaps Derbyshire’s anti-black sentiments — which are the sentiments, not of an aging Lost Cause partisan, but of an English-born, web-savvy world traveler with a Chinese wife — are less of an anachronism and more of a harbinger of a post-post-racial future.

This future is unlikely to be as ugly as the past, because the case for formal segregation and overt racial discrimination isn’t going to come back. Nor, as I’ve said before, do I think that race is going to be the controlling cleavage of 21st century America: Already, I think religion, political ideology and social class can trump the color line as a source of polarization and division, and I expect that pattern to continue.

But I can think of a half-dozen reasons why public expressions of race-based hostility (of all sorts, not just against African Americans) might become more common, not less, as the America of the Boomers gives way to the America of the millennials. These reasons include the Internet’s tendency to make the taboo not-so-taboo anymore, our growing chronological distance from the institutional injustices whose successful overthrow made racism taboo in the first place, our culture’s obsession with genetic theories of just about everything, the fracturing of the Christian common ground that undergirded at least some of the belief in human equality, the way that diversity seems to increase social mistrust, the social gulf that increasingly yawns between upper-class whites who are invested in a multiracial society and lower-class whites who feel like losers in it, the potential growth of a grievance-based white identity politics as America becomes majority-minority, and the fact that white guilt over slavery and segregation — the foundation of the anti-racist consensus at the moment — will necessarily be a weaker cultural force in a country that’s more Hispanic, more Asian, and more non-white in general.

In this regard, it was interesting to read Isabel Wilkerson’s essay, just over a week ago in the Times, which used the Trayvon Martin shooting as a window into relations between blacks and Hispanics in present-day Florida. Taking note of studies showing that Hispanic immigrants “actually reported higher negative feelings toward blacks than most native-born whites,” she treated these findings as evidence of the long shadow of Jim Crow:

… in central Florida, a region whose demographic landscape is rapidly changing, where unprecedented numbers of Latino immigrants have arrived at a place still scarred by the history of a vigilante-enforced caste system and the stereotypes that linger from it. In this context, newcomers — like previous waves of immigrants in the past — may feel pressed to identify with the dominant caste and distance themselves from blacks, in order to survive.

Maybe this is the whole story, and Latinos are just adapting to social pressures created by America’s history of white racism. But note that the Hispanic respondents in the survey weren’t just a little more likely than whites to characterize blacks as shiftless and untrustworthy; they were much more likely to embrace those stereotypes when prompted by the pollsters. And blacks, for their part, were also significantly more likely than whites to characterize Hispanics as untrustworthy. So while it’s possible that this is all a second-order (or third-order, or fourth-order) consequence of the hierarchies that segregation established, it’s also potential evidence for what’s probably a more pessimistic view — that racial bias and stereotyping would be resilient even absent the legacy of segregation, and that the current eclipse of overt racism has been made possible by a level of self-policing that may be not sustained in a more ethnically fragmented culture where the civil rights era seems increasingly long ago and far away.

Source

I've seen this article floating around on facebook, and I'm curious about what people here think.

ETA: The author of this article (Ross Douthat) is the same guy who wrote this pile of garbage: The Roots of White Anxiety. So I'm suspicious of anything he says about race from the get-go, but his main point (that racism has not gone away, but rather evolved)appears to be a sound one. However, something about this article rubs me the wrong way, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. :/
tabaqui 15th-Apr-2012 02:47 am (UTC)
This is....really interesting. And i can't actually formulate anything intelligent and coherent right now. I'm going to have to think a bit.

Right off the top of my head, I can't tell if Conor Friedersdorf thinks that this: They are, however, determined to make the multiracial society work, they believe it can be made to work in spite of the hustlers and liberal guilt-mongers, and they are unwilling to read, say, or think anything that could be construed as unkind towards people of other races. The pessimism and cynicism on this topic that you rather commonly find among conservatives — including NR readers — born in 1930, or even 1950, are profoundly unappetizing to these younger conservatives. is good or bad....


livinghope 15th-Apr-2012 11:36 am (UTC)
yeah, that's why I wanted to get _p's thoughts on this because some of it seems to be making a good point (that rather than being post-racism, racism has merely evolved) and then some of it just makes me go ".....wut?" IDK I feel like something with this article is really off, I just can't quite put my finger on it.
tabaqui 15th-Apr-2012 02:52 pm (UTC)
Yeah. That first quote, he seems kind of *annoyed* that 'younger conservatives' don't want to run down poc, but the main article author kind of seems like...'blacks and latinos are racist, too! We're all dooooooomed!!'

Or something. I dunno. The tone of the article is very downer.
violetrose 15th-Apr-2012 03:30 pm (UTC)
but the main article author kind of seems like...'blacks and latinos are racist, too! We're all dooooooomed!!'

That seems to be the point of the article... if there is a point to it.
livinghope 15th-Apr-2012 10:28 pm (UTC)
I think saying that "black people and latino people are racist too" was one of his reasons for believing that we are nowhere near a post-racial society, but I don't think that was the main point of the article.
luminescnece 15th-Apr-2012 04:38 am (UTC)
This sounds like many of my conservative leaning friends, exactly the kind of people I used to alienate all the time when I was making wide, loud generalizations about 'conservatives' based on my understanding of the most radical and far right ass hats among them.

Which when I think about it, is little better or worse than the same said conservative leaning friends that used to make wide, loud generalizations about 'liberals' based on their understanding of the most radical and far left ass hats among us.
dearmisterecho 15th-Apr-2012 04:42 am (UTC)
and the fact that white guilt over slavery and segregation — the foundation of the anti-racist consensus at the moment



sorry brah, but no.
deathchibi 15th-Apr-2012 05:20 am (UTC)
Why is everything having to do with sprouting any sort of sensitivity towards the massive amounts of racism in history always have to turn into white guilt with these people? It's always white guilt this, white guilt that. I just thought it was being a considerate human being, personally. o_o
dearmisterecho 15th-Apr-2012 05:32 am (UTC)
yeah, when people assume "understanding white privilege" = "having white guilt," then that proves they don't know what they are talking about AT ALL.

livinghope 15th-Apr-2012 11:29 am (UTC)
Yep, pretty much.
skellington1 15th-Apr-2012 05:44 am (UTC)
No kidding. Is "empathy and compassion" really THAT hard? I don't have to feel personally guilty to realize that I have it better than a lot of people in a lot of ways just because of an accident of birth, or to realize that really heinous shit has happened and continues to happen. It's not guilt it's being reasonably thoughtful and aware of the world around you.
angelus7988 15th-Apr-2012 06:23 am (UTC)
"Is "empathy and compassion" really THAT hard?"

I think you've answered your own question.
masakochan 15th-Apr-2012 07:14 am (UTC)
Is "empathy and compassion" really THAT hard?

From an autistic-spectrum viewpoint- (considering that some people think having this means I'm pretty much an unemotional robot)- trust me when I say that there has definitely a discussion, or two, about a (sometimes shocking) lack of empathy and compassion coming from the people who think we're the robots.
teacup_werewolf 15th-Apr-2012 01:11 pm (UTC)
IA, I think it's ironic as hell when non-autistics have no sort of understanding about our neurology or our POVs and go on diatribes about how we need to be have "empathy". I also love it how they use empathy as some sort of limus test to see if were actually human beings.

Bugs me to tears.
riath 15th-Apr-2012 08:05 am (UTC)
It is just being a consideration human being. I know I don't have any white guilt, just empathy for other people who are far too often treated like dirt.

The only white people that should be having guilt are the racist douchecanoes that create all the problems, but sadly, I can't see that happening any time soon.
missmurchison 15th-Apr-2012 04:13 pm (UTC)
Most people recognize white privilege because it exists, not because they feel like they created it.

But I'm not surprised that a lot of conservatives feel guilty if they dare to contemplate the problem. What pisses me off is that they push that guilt so far into the past. I've seen people in management positions tie themselves into knots thinking up ways not to promote a black person. "It's not her turn,etc." If people in power positions feel guilt, many of them can look at their own deeds for the cause.
seasontoseason 15th-Apr-2012 05:23 am (UTC)
They laugh with us when we lampoon the more outrageous kind of black race hustler — a Sharpton, a Farrakhan, a Johnny Cochran.

Fail.
riath 15th-Apr-2012 08:00 am (UTC)
are happy to hear arguments pro and con about racial profiling

Is there a pro side to racial profiling? Of wait, it's just that douchebag John Derbyshire spouting more stupid ignorant bullshit.
livinghope 15th-Apr-2012 11:40 am (UTC)
A lot of conservatives are under the impression that racial profiling is a "the ends justify the means" situation. The people I've talked to have acknowledged that racial profiling has it's problems, but have decided that in the end it's more important that we be kept safe even if it means "hurting someone's feelings." I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but I think that's probably what Douthat is driving at here.
ladypolitik 15th-Apr-2012 02:44 pm (UTC)
Is there a pro side to racial profiling?

The only people who perceive a "pro" to racial profiling are the ones who usually never have to be subjected to it.

Funnily enough, that's a hallmark of white privilege: agreeing to absurd identity scrutiny and pretending as if it applies to everyone, when in reality, whiteness is automatically opted out of such demeaning processes.

So of course straight white cis men are predominantly keenest when it comes to treating dehumanizing notions -- like profiling -- as something "objective" and "logical".

It's funny, because you'd think one know better, what with the propensity of too many privilege white people to scream "Reverse Opresshun" at the slightest misinterpretation/identification of discrimination.

--But then if they recognized real oppression beyond using slurs, owning swastika tattoos, and burning crosses in someone's front lawn, we wouldn't be having this convo to begin with, now would we.

Edited at 2012-04-15 02:46 pm (UTC)
livinghope 15th-Apr-2012 10:32 pm (UTC)
A+ comment
we_like_tea 15th-Apr-2012 08:44 am (UTC)
"They are, however, determined to make the multiracial society work"

Um...what's the alternative?
keestone 15th-Apr-2012 02:21 pm (UTC)
Do you really want that question answered? *shudder*
hinoema 15th-Apr-2012 09:04 am (UTC)
They laugh with us when we lampoon the more outrageous kind of black race hustler — a Limbaugh, a Beck, a Rick Perry....

Fixed that.

Edited at 2012-04-15 02:06 pm (UTC)
babysinclair 15th-Apr-2012 10:27 am (UTC)
I was on the night time shuttle bus here in Philly drunk as a skunk and called this dude out on his privileged like a dumbass, loudly and rudely. But I was shocked when everyone black on the bus, including the lady debating with him, were like he knows nothing different than us. I was shocked, angry, and appalled that he used his poverty as an equalization to act like he was on the same level as black people but not as much as the black woman defending him.

I'm drunk right now and that stupid post that said drunk people = more conservative needs to hang with more white liberal leaning people.

I am sorry i I've offended anyone but that made me so angry that she was defending his white ass.
cinco_series 15th-Apr-2012 01:18 pm (UTC)
I think people who believe that racism will go away in the coming decades are kidding themselves. I predict that when whites will become a minority (among others) they will become more and more hostile to notions like affirmative action, white privilege, anti-racism,... There is some truth in this article when the author says that a lot of our anti-racist consensus today is built over white guilt and that it will go away at some point. The internet has proven to me that people (of all ethnicities) are just as racist as before. The only difference is that they are better at hiding it in real life.

Racism follows power. Economic power, cultural power, demographic power,... There will always be one group more powerful, more priviledged than another. Whether it will be whites, blacks, asians,... People are just not colorblind (and lol @ some of the commenters here pretending they are) and skin color will always be a factor. There are other factors of course (social class, money, education, religion, language...).

In the future, there is the risk that people will meet less and less people in their lives and they will communicate more and more through screens and computers. That's kind of scary for anti-racism because i believe that the most powerful way to fight prejudice is to meet and become friend with people of other ethnicities.

And don't get me started on the very realistic prospect of when parents will be able to choose the skin color/eye color/hair color of their unborn child. Things will get really fucked up and racial diversity will be in danger because people will want their babies to look like the dominant ethnic group. I totally believe that it will become a reality by the end of this century. I mean just look at all the things that seemed impossible in 1912 and then happened (space and man on the moon, nuclear bomb and WWI+II, television and internet, In vitro fertilisation, animal cloning,...).
cinco_series 15th-Apr-2012 03:18 pm (UTC)
I'm sure you are smart enough to understand it.
angelofdeath275 15th-Apr-2012 03:56 pm (UTC)
no seriously what are you trying to say.
cinco_series 15th-Apr-2012 04:03 pm (UTC)
Ok. In short, i'm trying to say that racism and race related issues are not gonna disappear and i don't believe that the future will be some great post-racial paradise on earth. And also that new technologies might make things even worse.
anolinde 15th-Apr-2012 08:18 pm (UTC)
Lol, what up with ontd_p's reading comprehension today? I understood what you were saying just fine.
meran_flash 16th-Apr-2012 11:51 am (UTC)
ia
anus 15th-Apr-2012 03:15 pm (UTC)
Oh god. I should not have read the comments on a Zimmerman article that examined issues with race. So many comments saying the poor white people HAVE to profile because it's blacks that always attack them blah blah. Zimmerman is a hero for what he did blah blah. I can't
violetrose 15th-Apr-2012 03:32 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure what the point of this article is. That black and Latino people are racist, too? That whites (in the US at least) are becoming a minority so we should naturally understand why so many white people are racist? That there's actually an argument in favour of racial profiling that's not racist?
livinghope 15th-Apr-2012 10:24 pm (UTC)
What I got out of it was that it's unwise to act as though racism is a relic of the past when it is surviving in the present and is likely to survive well into the future. I think the things he said in order to GET to that point are problematic, but the point itself (as I understand it anyway) is a good one.
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