ONTD Political

US marine 'base' is a mistake, says Fraser

9:22 am - 04/24/2012
THE former Liberal prime minister Malcolm Fraser says the new American marine "base" near Darwin is a mistake, and that Australia's grovelling to Washington is hampering ties with Asia.

In a strongly worded submission to the federal government's white paper on future relations with Asia, Mr Fraser has criticised Australia's subservience to the US as a product of misguided assumptions America offers a security guarantee.




"Over 20 years now we have given the impression of doing that which America wants," Mr Fraser writes.

"We seem to believe that our security can be best assured if we do what we can to win brownie points with the US. This is a mistaken assumption.

''No country can really win brownie points with great powers. Great powers follow their own national interests and we should follow ours."


Mr Fraser is highly critical of the deployment of US marines in the Northern Territory, saying it fuels Chinese concerns over a policy of containment. He also dismisses claims by Labor and the Obama administration that the presence of the marines does not amount to a "base".

"For America to say that 2500 troops do not constitute a base is nonsense, indeed a fabrication," Mr Fraser writes.

"In military terms, a base does not have to be bricks and mortar. If 2500 troops are stationed in a particular place then the language makes it quite plain that they are based in that place. It is a base.

"To say that they are just passing through and that it is not a base is deceptive and misleading. It sends the wrong message, not only to China, but to countries like Indonesia."

He told the Herald he was also concerned Australia would lose more of its independence in Asia should the US turn Cocos Island into a base for unmanned surveillance drones, as reported last month in The Washington Post.

The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, commissioned a white paper last year guided by the former head of Treasury, Ken Henry, titled Australia in the Asian Century.

Mr Fraser said he had only decided to put his thoughts on paper after the marines' presence in Darwin was announced and reports of plans for a US military presence in the Cocos Islands emerged.

In his submission, he said he was not against the US alliance but for Australian independence.

He said in assessing what to do in the future, Australia should conscious of our history and a dependence on Britain before World War II: "We believed that Britain would be able to secure our future," he writes. "It never occurred to us that Britain would be so preoccupied, so beleaguered, that in a situation of emergency she would not be able to help."


ETA: The Liberal Party is the more Conservative Party in Australia though Fraser has always been very liberal (small l liberal) than most of the party. He was particulary critical of the social policies of the previous Liberal Howard Government and is now almost entirely alienated by the current Liberal party.

Source
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 02:33 am (UTC)
Yeah, because creating closer ties to our neighbours isn't smart or anything. We'll just cosy on up to the largest 'white western' super-power and ignore the guys across the strait.
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 02:54 am (UTC)
Ah. How is being close and compliant with China going to help you? The whole idea that America is only looking out for their own interests -- well, is China innocent of that? Im not saying that you shouldn't be on good terms with china, But Fraser here is blatantly throwing any alliance with America under the proverbial bus. China would love for Korea, Japan, etc to get rid of American alliances so they can have their way there. This doesn't help Australia. The US isn't fucking up Australian affairs like Fraser is painting it. And if it is, I dont think America is what Australia needs to worry about having 'independence' from.
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 03:00 am (UTC)
What Fraser wants is NOT to have an American base on Australian soil. Somehow, I think he'd say the same about having an Indonesian or Chinese base.

And why do you think that Fraser is in 'China's pocket'?? Is there something you know that I don't. This is the guy who has a reputation for calling out human right abuse overseas. He's got a long distinguished career on that front.

Australia has a long history of being BFF super-powers, Britain threw us over when the Japanese invaded - I'm pretty sure America will do the same thing. He's not saying we shouldn't have trade or diplomatic ties with America he's saying we shouldn't prioritise them above all others which we have been doing for decades.
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 03:04 am (UTC)
OH also, I'm kinda sick and tired of having my country fight American wars.
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 03:25 am (UTC)
Amen to that!
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 03:26 am (UTC)
Well, to give an example, America had Clinton who was also an advocator of Human Rights, but has show no hesitation to cozy-ing up to China, when it was convenient for him. So that doesn't automatically, in any way whatsoever, absolve a politician of that.

As far as being thrown over by super-powers, if you got into a problem where it is in America's best interest and you are on good terms w/ them, they will help you. If not, they will certainly throw you over. That simply can not be denied. I don't know about anyone else, But I'd rather have that 50/50 chance of having a super power back me up than 0/0. Not to say that you ought to bend over backward for that, or make sacrifices you aren't prepared for. Absolutely stand your ground when the time comes to do so. But I'd choose my battles carefully, on a self-interested level. I certainly wouldn't blatantly side with another rising power, which clearly has its own ulterior motives which often --and definitely in this case-- go against said super power's agendas. Thinking politically, I cant see how it is in Australia's best interest at this point in time, for Fraser to be saying any of this. So my conclusion is, he must has his own ulterior motives. Nothing concrete, but that's my gut.

Q: How many casualties has Australia had in the Iraq war?
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 03:32 am (UTC)
I think we have bigger casualties in Afghanistan. But I think it's more important than just loss of life, it's the fact we're putting out money into a war that is doing no good and has absolutely no strategic value for Australia (and you know, local people dying).

But as of now, according to my google-fu we've lost about 30ish in Iraq and in Afghanistan it's a little higher, not counting suicides (which there has been a few post-service).

muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 03:38 am (UTC)
Ah. My google search turned up three 'accidental' but I didn't think that could be right. Another is saying 21. I think you guys also participated in Vietnam. Regardless, I do understand the POV of not wanting to put money into this war. As an American turned Canadian, I feel the same way.

I still don't get Fraser's MO here, but that I can relate to.
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 03:40 am (UTC)
Fraser doesn't want an American base on Ausralian soil. Is that desire so hard to understand? I've been to Korea and the Koreans don't want an American base either, but they have no choice coz North Korea. But Australia has no need for one. Nobody wants foreign military bases on their land.
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 03:53 am (UTC)
Hm. I lived in Korea for three years and am moving back this year, and from my experience it is only the left who doesn't want an American Military base there. They mostly recognize the immediate and long term need for an American military base, so to say they don't want it there categorically is a gross overstatement. We are also talking a HUGE difference here, The 'base' in Australia is 2500 guys. In Korea, it's ten times the size, and Japan is twenty times the size. Seoul ACTUALLY has a base, so does Japan. So I don't think the comparison to there is quite fair.

I can perfectly understand not wanting an American base on your soil for several reasons. I just don't agree with Frasier's reasons for not wanting it (essentially not to 'give in' to the American super power, make America top priority, and not wanting to 'piss off china etc). It doesn't seem strategic or smart to me and even a little contradictory. I think there is more to it.
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 03:36 am (UTC)
My problem is when this willingness to follow the U.S into wherever they go, it goes against what the majority of the Australian public wants. We shouldn't have to follow every single one of the US wishes to remain on good terms with them.

A: Australia has had 2 in Iraq (and 32 in Afghanistan)
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 03:29 am (UTC)
Oh, and how many wars has Australia fought for America?
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 03:37 am (UTC)
Korea, Iraq (both of them), Afghanistan and Vietnam.
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 03:38 am (UTC)
every single one since WW2
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 03:57 am (UTC)
Well to be fair, all of those wars weren't fought solely for American Benefit. For example, you guys participated in Vietnam to stop the spread of communism. Australia shared an interest in that as well.
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 03:58 am (UTC)
I'm sure Britain did too, and Canada, but they didn't participate in that war.
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 04:02 am (UTC)
Canada also didn't participate in Iraq, But they did take on Kandahar and increased their commitment in Afghanistan to countervail that. I'm not sure what your point is though?
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 04:04 am (UTC)
Do you really think that Vietnam was about stopping the spread of Communism?
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 04:05 am (UTC)
Do you not?
hinoema 24th-Apr-2012 04:31 am (UTC)
Anyone who has studied history Does Not.
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 04:37 am (UTC)
So can you elaborate a bit? Which Historians are saying this? What did they say? Could someone explicitly state what has been said otherwise?

I mean, are you talking about Imperialism? Resources? What is this alternate theory and who is saying it? Why do you think there is some iron-clad consensus amoung Historians that this is not the cause?
hinoema 24th-Apr-2012 04:45 am (UTC)
I have to leave for work soon so I can't go into too much detail, but... every source I've seen, every class I've had that has covered this (and I'm working on an Asian Studies Focus Award, so it's been several) has cited 'stopping the spread of Communism' as a rationale, not a reason. The actual reasons were about resource control, access to markets and preventing the Soviets from getting that market access and resource control. The Vietnamese (and their resources and labor) were just the resource being fought over. It's similar to the power play in the Middle East- no one would give a rat's ass about 'spreading Democracy' (the new 'stopping Communism') if they didn't have coveted resources.
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 05:17 am (UTC)
Hm. Saying this is the 'reason' of it seems superfluous, because while it is true, it wasn't the core thing. They were explicitly trying to economically contain soviet powers -- That was part of the American Cold War strategy. Containment in general. They had institutions such as CoCom just for that. Economic containment was just a part of it. They were trying to shift alliances away from soviet influence, they would support paramilitary against soviet-influenced regimes. etc. Political containment. Containment in general.

I don't think America truly cared about the Vietnamese labor market. Their main influence was that they don't like enemy regimes. If they cared so much about the Vietnamese labour market why didn't they fight with the French for it. When the French could no longer hold onto it -- against soviet backed militants, the Viet Minh, that's when America suddenly cared.

Honestly, I am surprised if you've found such a consensus in your studies. If every source you have corroborates I'd wonder if I've been exposed to a full spectrum of information. Academia is all about debate so I find that very odd.
hinoema 24th-Apr-2012 07:03 am (UTC)
They were explicitly trying to economically contain soviet powers -- That was part of the American Cold War strategy. Containment in general. They had institutions such as CoCom just for that. Economic containment was just a part of it. They were trying to shift alliances away from soviet influence, they would support paramilitary against soviet-influenced regimes. etc. Political containment. Containment in general.

I actually agree with this. I just get tired of people who use phrases like 'stop the spread of communism' the way a serial comic would use 'fighting the forces of evil'. It's simplistic, and implies that whoever is doing it must be right. Using a third country to try to 'contain' another is vastly out of line, no matter who is doing it or what their rationale is- if they're stopping the spread of communism or imperialist capitalism or whatever.
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 04:32 am (UTC)
I'm sure it's a small factor, especially when convincing allies and getting the people to support it. But no.
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 04:19 am (UTC)
Personally I don't think that's really true, but if it is then Australia still fought the majority of these wars for the benefit of the US
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 04:21 am (UTC)
Okay. how it isn't true though?
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 04:26 am (UTC)
I don't believe that the Vietnam War made any difference to the spread of Communism in South East Asia.
muse_misery 24th-Apr-2012 04:32 am (UTC)
But do you disagree that Australia participated to try and stop the spread of communism? that that was their motive?
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 04:35 am (UTC)
I don't think that was the main reason. I believe it was because of the ANZUS treaty
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 04:36 am (UTC)
Yep. Pretty much that.
bronweeny 24th-Apr-2012 04:42 am (UTC)
Completely OT but your icon is adorable!!
ms_maree 24th-Apr-2012 05:08 am (UTC)
I love cats, especially fluffy cats. I have a ragdoll and I really should try and find a nice pic of them to put in an icon, but this icon is so just so cute when I found it, I had to use it. :)
hinoema 24th-Apr-2012 04:32 am (UTC)
And even if it did, or was really about that, who are we (or anyone) to tell another country "No, you can't run your government like that, we don't like it"?
patu_paiarehe 24th-Apr-2012 09:02 pm (UTC)
Does it matter? The fact is they have fought, people have died, the exact number is immaterial. If one soldier died it would still be one too many.

China has a huge economic impact on the South Pacific, and is doing much more for our economies* than the US is. Why shouldn't we choose to recentre ourselves around our nearest and strongest economic ally?

You say that the US *might* come help out Australia if it gets into a scrape. Or it might not, but the possibility is still better than nothing. But really, who is Australia going to get into trouble with? Most of the flack they cop is to do with toeing the US line, not for the wild adventures they get up to on their own.

Tl;dr, it's Australia's prerogative to choose who they want on their own soil and the US reaction says a lot about their views of their "allies".

*I'm from NZ but it's pretty much the same issue.
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