ONTD Political

A decisive conclusion is necessary

11:33 am - 11/19/2012
A decisive conclusion is necessary
There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip.

Anyone who thinks Hamas is going to beg for a cease-fire, that Operation Pillar of Defense will draw to a close and quiet will reign in the South because we hit targets in the Gaza Strip, needs to think again.

With the elimination of a murderous terrorist and the destruction of Hamas’s long-range missile stockpile, the operation was off to an auspicious start, but what now? This must not be allowed to end as did Operation Cast Lead: We bomb them, they fire missiles at us, and then a cease-fire, followed by “showers” – namely sporadic missile fire and isolated incidents along the fence. Life under such a rain of death is no life at all, and we cannot allow ourselves to become resigned to it.

A strong opening isn’t enough, you also have to know how to finish – and finish decisively. If it isn’t clear whether the ball crossed the goal-line or not, the goal isn’t decisive. The ball needs to hit the net, visible to all. What does a decisive victory sound like? A Tarzan-like cry that lets the entire jungle know in no uncertain terms just who won, and just who was defeated.

To accomplish this, you need to achieve what the other side can’t bear, can’t live with, and our initial bombing campaign isn’t it.

THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.

The Gaza Strip functions as a state – it has a government and conducts foreign relations, there are schools, medical facilities, there are armed forces and all the other trappings of statehood. We have no territorial conflict with “Gaza State,” and it is not under Israeli siege – it shares a border with Egypt. Despite this, it fires on our citizens without restraint.

Why do our citizens have to live with rocket fire from Gaza while we fight with our hands tied? Why are the citizens of Gaza immune? If the Syrians were to open fire on our towns, would we not attack Damascus? If the Cubans were to fire at Miami, wouldn’t Havana suffer the consequences? That’s what’s called “deterrence” – if you shoot at me, I’ll shoot at you. There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

Were this to happen, the images from Gaza might be unpleasant – but victory would be swift, and the lives of our soldiers and civilians spared.

IF THE government isn’t prepared to go all the way on this, it will mean reoccupying the entire Gaza Strip. Not a few neighborhoods in the suburbs, as with Cast Lead, but the entire Strip, like in Defensive Shield, so that rockets can no longer be fired.

There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip. Otherwise there will be no decisive victory. And we’re running out of time – we must achieve victory quickly. The Netanyahu government is on a short international leash. Soon the pressure will start – and a million civilians can’t live under fire for long. This needs to end quickly – with a bang, not a whimper.


The writer, whom I currently think is evil, is the son of former PM of Israel Ariel Sharon.

He certainly isn't alone in his thinking; according to a HuffPo article: Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai is reported by The Yeshiva World News to have said, "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water." Haaretz also reports that Yishai stated, "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

So far, 73 Palestinians and 3 Israelis have died.
the_gabih Re: do you think that this is evil as well?19th-Nov-2012 11:42 am (UTC)
It is not something we condone, no, but these people are not the ones with the military power in this situation. Israel has the capacity to do what they are threatening to do, and that is why people are angrier about what they're saying than what people in Gaza are saying.
the_gabih Re: do you think that this is evil as well?19th-Nov-2012 09:23 pm (UTC)
Yes, but they don't have the power to wipe out an entire country. Israel does.

And I have no idea what you're trying to prove with that horrendously biased thing- that all Arabs are hideously evil psychopaths?- but I'm not impressed at all.
celtic_thistle Re: do you think that this is evil as well?19th-Nov-2012 10:11 pm (UTC)
Seriously. I am so fucking sick of people trying to act like Palestine is just as dangerous/destructive as Israel. I really am.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 02:16 am (UTC)
And Israel tries to be careful about how it employs that power. The likes of HAMAS and Hezbullah, on the other hand, are deliberately indiscriminate.

If you're going purely by more power = evil, that means championing Al Qaeda against the military coalition which stomped on them, too.
homasse 20th-Nov-2012 02:56 am (UTC)
Only...no one is championing Hamas here. :/

Saying "what your side is doing is wrong" is not the same as saying "what the other side is doing is right."
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 03:05 am (UTC)
You said that Israel can wipe out an entire country. If you weren't trying to give moral equivalence on the basis of raw military power, then what was your point?

Ultimately, Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties just as much as Western forces, if not even more so. HAMAS, on the other hand, seeks to inflict them. It's an important difference.
homasse 20th-Nov-2012 07:08 am (UTC)
Um, no, I did not say that Israel can wipe out an entire country; you are mistaking me for another commenter.

Try again, please. :/
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 07:11 am (UTC)
Quite right. I apologise. the_gabih did, which was the comment I was initially replying to.

These things can run into hundreds of replies, so, I usually just click on the direct link, rather than the whole thread.
the_gabih 20th-Nov-2012 07:33 am (UTC)
And Israel tries to be careful about how it employs that power.

[citation needed], considering how many civilians are currently being killed by their 'surgical strikes' (which, come on, you can't make in one of the most densely populated areas on Earth).

I'm not going purely by power = evil, no. I'm going by power + really, really shitty attitudes towards the people you're using it against = evil. I'm not championing Hamas, or the rocket attacks, I'm saying that Israel is vastly more able to carry out its goals than they are.
dobermanndru 20th-Nov-2012 09:55 am (UTC)
It's perfectly possible. If you're not aware of the technology employed, I can see how you might think that, but these days, even if you're using GPS-guided, instead of laser, you're still able to get very precise hits.

And if you are using laser-guided (which the Israelis do, extensively), it's not even a case of trying to hit the right building - it's more like deciding on which window.

As you request an example, however:

And the last time someone fact-checked that density meme, it was found to be untrue. I think that Tel Aviv, alone, was found to be about four times more densely populated.

Israel undertakes a great deal of measures to try and reduce collateral damage, including telephoning the occupants of buildings needing to be hit, to give warnings ahead of time. They did much the same in the Lebanon, 2006, too. I'm not aware of any other military which would do that, with the possible exceptions of the US and UK, since it allows the enemy to escape the area, too.

Keep in mind that something like 100 missiles HAMAS is firing end up malfunctioning and slam down in Gaza, itself, exploding. You'll find a lot of pictures of children supposedly maimed by Israeli strikes are actually victims of these HAMAS misfires.

A case in point:


So, by the above videos, the Israelis have a healthier regard for trying to avoid innocents than HAMAS, who is deliberately trying to inflict them. Ergo, your attribution of "really shitty attitude" should not be directed at the IDF, but the likes of HAMAS, who would rather spend all the millions the UN gives them on weapons, than helping to give food, medicine and housing to those in need. Who, of course, they have a vested interest in keeping in poverty, since they can blame it all on Israel and remain in power (same strategy as North Korea uses).
the_gabih 20th-Nov-2012 09:24 pm (UTC)
If their surgical strikes are so amazing, why is it that most of the dead in Gaza so far have been women and children? I will concede that that statistic about density may be false, but Israel is targeting residential areas. It's targeting homes.

Keep in mind that something like 100 missiles HAMAS is firing end up malfunctioning and slam down in Gaza, itself, exploding. You'll find a lot of pictures of children supposedly maimed by Israeli strikes are actually victims of these HAMAS misfires.

[citation needed], and preferably one that isn't a terribly biased blog.

And actually, Hamas reportedly spends about 90% of its budget on social issues. It's kind of hard, too, to help people in need when people like Israel are blockading you and providing you with the absolute minimum amount of food you need to not die. Oh, and when you're not globally recognised as a state. That also hinders things a bit.
dobermanndru 21st-Nov-2012 04:30 am (UTC)
I suppose that a lot of their weapons are smuggled in through the Egyptian tunnels and donated from places like Iran. I'd hold off from commending them on that 90% figure, though. I doubt the accounts of an organisation like HAMAS are exactly audit-friendly...

Yes, sometimes Israel has to target homes which are being used to launch missiles or to store ammunition. And does things like telephoning/texting those inside ahead of time, to try and prevent unnecessary harm as much as possible - which undoubtedly means terrorist agents end up slipping away and simply setting up shop elsewhere, but as I've already pointed out, that's the kind of cost Israel is prepared to shoulder, whereas virtually no other nation in the world would.

HAMAS, however, has been urging the local populaiton to ignore these warnings:


I can only presume that they're doing it in order to create unnecessary deaths, so that they can start shoving real victims at the cameras, instead of hawking photos from places like Syria and claiming them as their own - which they've recently done.

As for misfiring HAMAS rockets, just look up the news reports on TV. There are plenty of examples being reported, live, now. :) I think I heard about five reporters, today - at least - speaking of missiles being fired in the direction of Jerusalem and ending up falling down in Gaza, instead.

Meanwhile, the IDF reported the 100+ figure, who I'm sure you probably regard as "terribly biased", but would probably be the leading authority in monitoring missile trajectories in the area - which, in turn, leads to casualties like the child referred to, below (who HAMAS then uses to claim as a victim of the other side).

beoweasel Re: do you think that this is evil as well?19th-Nov-2012 10:29 pm (UTC)
They have AK-47s and cheap missiles powered by fertilizer, the Israeli have an multi-billion dollar army at their disposal.

How, in anyway are those remotely comparable?
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